INTERVIEW - ABC RADIO WORLD TODAY WITH ELEANOR HALL

Tuesday, 23 February 2010

Subject: Counter Terrorism White Paper

HALL: As we've been hearing, the Federal Government is responding to the White Paper on Counter-Terrorism with a blueprint to counter violent extremism in Australia.

The Attorney-General, Robert McClelland, has been speaking to Alexandra Kirk about the Government's plans.

KIRK: Robert McClelland, the White Paper warns of the increased danger posed by home-grown terrorists, people born or raised in Australia who've become radicalised or influenced by violent jihadist message. How many people are we talking about?

McCLELLAND: Well, there has been 38 prosecutions – granted, some of those are still before the courts – but of those 38, 37 were Australian citizens, and of those 37, 20 were born in Australia. So in short, it is a significant risk.

KIRK: Of all those who security agencies think pose a threat, how many are there, beyond those who are before the courts?

McCLELLAND: It's not appropriate to identify the numbers. The numbers of those who are prepared to support violent means to achieve their ends is quite narrow, and the number of those who are prepared to use violent means to obtain their ends is narrower still.

KIRK: So we're talking dozens, hundreds?

McCLELLAND: Well, it's not appropriate to identify it in that context other than to say the numbers are narrow in the context of our multicultural society, but nonetheless they are not insignificant.

KIRK: Do you believe you're on top of the problem?

McCLELLAND: This is going to be an ongoing issue. The reality is if we, in a decade's time or two decades' time, want to have a situation where our children and grandchildren aren't concerned about terrorism, we need to address this process of radicalisation in Australia.

In Australia, we have a head start because we have a vibrant multicultural community. But there are these elements that we've discussed that we need to unquestionably look at, including removing people from the process of radicalisation and indeed removing the radicalisers.

KIRK: Do you know how to neutralise that violent jihadist message? Why can't you just shut down the sources of radicalisation?

McCLELLAND: Well, part of the prosecution process is to remove people from the community who do that. The path of radicalisation is the subject of debate and academic research. We think we've got a fair handle on those radicalising criteria or events in Australia that we look at addressing in the broad.

But we also look at those individuals who appear – often as a result of feedback received from their own communities – to be heading down this path, then working with and empowering those communities so that we can turn – usually young men, it must be said – around, and indeed isolating those who would be the radicalisers.

KIRK: Can you see a time when you will be able to prevent the radicalisation from occurring in the first place?

McCLELLAND: Not in the short term is the regrettable answer to that.

KIRK: On a broader front, there is a lot of interest in the 10 countries Australia is targeting for the introduction of biometric checks on visa applicants, people who want to come to Australia. The Government won't name those 10 countries. Why not?

McCLELLAND: That is going to be done in conjunction with Stephen Smith and Chris Evans through Immigration and Foreign Affairs, but we will be sitting down with UK authorities to look at where they have coverage, ensuring that we don't duplicate the coverage that they have, and where we can value-add.

We will also be looking at the countries of risk, areas where there is instability, obviously where there is the presence of considerable support for terrorist organisations, training and the like. Obviously, this will inform the judgement of where we place the technologies.

KIRK: But why won't the Government say which countries they are?

McCLELLAND: It is still work in progress and having now signed off literally sitting down and working with our British counterparts to ensure that we value-add.

KIRK: Terrorism experts have had a bit of a stab at which these countries might be, for example, Indonesia, Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen, as most likely to be on your biometric hit list. Have you consulted these countries and have any of them expressed a willingness to cooperate?

McCLELLAND: Well again, that is a question for the Foreign Minister.

A lot of work is done at official levels through the Department of Immigration at airports and so forth. There is obviously ongoing discussion in terms of actually announcing our intention to utilise these technologies. I suspect that the specifics of the discussions regarding the introduction of these technologies will now commence.

HALL: The Federal Attorney-General, Robert McClelland, speaking to Alexandra Kirk.

[Ends]